Viser innlegg med etiketten 12 CSVT. Vis alle innlegg
Viser innlegg med etiketten 12 CSVT. Vis alle innlegg

søndag 15. november 2015

More Tantalus Type Trius.....type 3 fantasy concoctions.

The BTC and BRB got it wholly wrong in ordering so many under-powered type 2 locomotives. You can tell me it is easy to say with hindsight, while at the time there were still many branch lines being operated by tank 'kettles' which required no more than type 2 or even just type 1 power to trundle along with their modestr services. However even at the time in the pilot programme it should have been clear from early experience that main line ambitions for the use of single locomotives really required type 3 and up over. They should have also been able to see the growth in the use of the lorry for light, rural mixed freight as a threat to the smaller tonnages that type 2 were invisaged to operate.

Perrcievere they did though, with huge orders being placed for the sulzer based units which became classes 24 through 27, and you can of course really include the EE type 1 class 20 in their ranks. The farce ran so high as to the re-engining of the brush type 2 "class 30" with a derated SVT engine which would have been between 1500 and 1550 hp standard traction rating for EE. Another arbitary de-rating incidentally was the v16 Maybach fitted in the Hymeks which actually had a standard and proven hydaulic traction rating of 1940 hp, but that was outside the actual type three desirable rating oddly enough. A poorly performing class 40 takes a while before it falls into being a type 3 apparently.

On the one end of events in a fantasy diesel scenario, english electric  would have offered a type 3 during the initial phase of dieselisation in the mid to late 1950s. Thus presenting a rival to the southern regions natty new sulzers, the later to become class 33s. This would have used in a 1956 scenario, the SVT variant of the engine in a body very similar to the eventual class 37, but with disk train indicator system. It would be light enough in design of course to be a CoCo, or potentially an AIA configuration. This loco would have undoubtedly proven its worth, as did the reliable EE engined class 31s, and BRB may have ordered a job lot of them, not being tempted away by the charge air cooled variant which was available from about 1958, essentially when D200 was delivered. However in fact we may then have been stuck with a smaller class of less impressive locos than the class 37, with the 37 maybe never happening until slab front ends came along, if at all.

Already by 1960 EE offered BR an uprated CVST class 40 (probably on CoCo with a medium body length) or the full 2000hp rating of the 12CSVT in the 37 format perhaps as a higher value, shorter maintenance interval loco for the types of express and semi fasts forties were allocated. In fact which ever way you look at it, 40s were a bit quicker on express services of upto 400 tonnes because they have higher gearing, more momentum, ra6 axle loadings and 250 more horse power while actually only hauling an additional quarter of a carriage difference in weight over a 'syphon'. Conversely their high gearing, greater inertia and slower pick up on the power unit via stepped control meant that they were a lot more pedestrian on stopping services where acceleration counts more than performance in the third field diversion.

An early first series dieselisation EE type 3 at 1500/1550 hp would have performed probably very similarly to a class 31 and rather like a sick class 37 ( eg 37108 and 37025 in 1982/84). An alternative to this option at the time of the baby deltic order, would have been a single 18 cylinder deltic lump rated at 1650 hp as it was in 'deltic' at the time, or a fully possible T12 version of the arrangement with turbo. While considering the same body and CoCo configuration of the EE type 3, you could fit a 24 cylinder deltic engine in there, and run as a type 4 with a rating of around 2200hp @1500rpm non turbo. In fact EE could have offered the Syphon G body and bogies as standard with a choice of power units as follows (by 1960):

1) Low maintainance 1500 hp SVT
2) 1500 hp T12
3) 1650 hp deltic 18
4) 1750 hp /1850* hp 12CSVT
5) 2000 hp high maintenance 12CSV
6) 2000hp 16 SVT forty compatible equipment , no boiler
7) 2200 hp T18 deltic
8) 2350 hp / 2700 hp 16 CSVT non bolier, but with ETH

* 1850 hp had been the standard rating for several export versions of the new CVST engine and 1750 was an arbitary down rating from 'full' marine rating of the CSVT in 1959 when the engines were ordered.

I have had a couple of folk state that the v16 would never have been fitted or could never have been fitted into a 'syphon G'. Firstly the size would most likely indeed proclude a boiler, but in fact of course the majority of 37s were delivered "NB" with the stonehouse boilers ordered for them mainly going into Brush type 4s at the time.
As anyone who has been through the engine room of a non boilered (never boilered) syphon will tell you, there is a large plinth of concrete which had to be installed to balance the locomotives in lieu of the boiler. Drivers referred to this as the 'band stand'. People further argue about the weight of a v16 espeically a CSVT version even without a boiler. However just a couple of years later, EE of course produced the Portugues class 1800 which are 108 tonnes, and in fact a 12CSVT was fitted in a 79 tonne meter gauge loco in the late 50s for export. The bogies' would probably need upgrading to class 50 / 55 standard but that is not a great difference in cost given the benefit of having a standard body over several power ratings and units. EE offered basically a stretched class 37 with the CSVT engine  @2350 hp, instead of further orders of the type 4 with 16 wheels. BRB in their folly declined this offer, stating that they wanted to continue with standard locomotives, which with hindsight seems rather short sighted when already the deltics had supplaced the D200s on the key ECML expresses and the ubiquitous 12LDA would push them almost into irrelevance had it not been for the D200s reliability and RA 6 rating. 2350 hp at under 120 tonnes all up weight with EE's higher voltage system favouring total acceleration speed, would have made for an impressive passenger and even heavy frieght (of the day )locomotive, pretty much well as capable as the rather lumbering 'peaks' with their massive tonnage. It has to be noted that Dp2 in fact produced significantly more horse power upto 25 miles an hour or so than a deltic which hauls on one engine up to approximately this speed, and when fitted with the KV10 load regulator, the light weight locomotive ( under 110 tonnes) prove exceedingly competent under taxing gradients and on express services.

Deltic power units would have been prohibitive for a mixed traffic class however due to their disliking for thermal cycling on start-stop services. Any of the above mentioned though would have been a hell of a lot of fun in a 37 body shell, with perhaps the most likely being a T18 being fitted into a sub class for operating lighter services on the WCML ahead of the advancing electrification in the 70s.

Sulzers  Wonderful 8 LDA engine should Get a Word in Edge Ways!!

Yet another rather tantalising option for type 3 fans in the initial period of short batch trials in the late 50s would have been an RA5 dual heat version of the southern region Sulzer type 3. This would have had to have three axeled bogies to accomodate the length and weight the boiler necessitated but it would have probably come in at around the same as the Brush type 2 and the 37. You could envisage this being a very useful bit of kit for depots already home to many 6LDA and 12 LDA locos who required some more grunt for semi fasts, light expresses and medium weight freights. Indeed so useful that an allocation to ScR would probably have negated the need for the reintroduction of the class 37 in the early eighties for the W. highland and Far North routes.

A little known fact I have  mentioned before is that the class 33 is in fact fitted with an engine with the same per cylinder rating as the class 24 and class 26 ie 1160 hp in their case, 1550 for the 33. This means that the loco could have been fitted with the intercooled 8LDA as a variant or from BREL as indeed the 25s and 27s were in effect. At 1700 hp in either a BoBo or on six axles, the loco would have been impressive, and in terms of the former of those two, it would probably have outrun just about anything on the rail network to 20 mph at least.

While on the topic of sulzer and their better power units (the 12LDA and 6 LDA suffering in build quality by them sub contracting out work and getting the whole 2750 hp rating build wrong on the 'duffs') the LVA units prove successful with in particular SNCF. They rated the 12 down to 2200 and even as low as 2000 hp, but there was also a v8 variant which picked up some type three ratings in its somewhat limited application. Given the 12 LVA was rated at 2650 and maybe a max 2750 in SNCF days, the 8 LVA would have come in at around 1800 hp if it was to be used in line with the much debated class '48' duffs which were not so duff. The LVA series was significantly lighter and more modern than the 1930s style twin bank 12 LDA lumps. The wee v8 is not bigger or heavier than in fact the 8 CSVT fitted to the portugeuse and the Irish bobo locos, so it could have been shoe horned into a class 33 shell, or of course just plonked into a class 31 body at least, or  a class 47 body shell to produce an RA 5 type 3 loco.
The 12 LVA sounded like a mad cross between a forty and an HST, whistling at idle and run up before shreiking as the revs came on. The 8 probably was much the same, just a third less so!

Just had a thought, suppose all the duffs were converted to 12 LVAs after the LDA   @2750 failure, and then say type two body shells are used with the v8, which would stll allow for room for the boiler?  The 8 LVA could then in theory be rated at upto 2000 hp being half a kestrel in practice. Presumably also a straight eight version could have been available with a rating above 1700hp. Essentially it is a very different engine, more so than say the RK 6 shunter EE unit is to the eventual 'slug' 6RKT.

While on air charge cooling, BRB could have thrown out their silly ideas of using the SVT further down rated and demanded that brush present a new loco to take the now proven 12 CSVT / probably a CoCo version of the 31. Ludicrous:? Well the class 47 very nearly had a cousin or contender which would have had the 16 CSVT engine in it as stipulated by BRB.

Beyond 1000 rpm......

The one higher speed engine tantalus I think many would like to have seen on BR, would be the diesel electric version of the Hymek. I rather think this may have been kept bobo but run without a boiler to keep weight down, but a CoCo would have been RA5. The germans ran at least one class as a variant to their populace v16 maybach single unit locos and they prove as reliable.

On to another new option is that by the mid 1960s Paxman were able to offer their v16 at over 2000 hp and their v12 was probably rateable at a type three level by then, soon to be included in the prototype HST at a higher again rating in the ventura v12 format. They had been run at this time in high thermal cycling environments being fitted to the ScR class 29, which achieved a reliability akin to other sulzer type 2s allegedly with these new power units replacing the NB built MAN designs. I rather like the idea that WR never had to get rid of their oil sloshers and that they ordered a fully british ventura v12 based type 3 AIA loco with dual brakes and an auxially diesel generator to take hydraulics into the 1980s and beyond. While ER would take a bobo type three to work end to end on sleeper services on the ECML and potentially on the freightliner container services during the daytime. A fully rated version then being used as a recovery loco for failed HSTs and other express trains on the ECML.

Finally while on the WR, it seemed odd that no one came up with a twin engined type 3 with two 800/900 hp units in it working two torque convertor transmissions, thus allowing for 1. redundancy / limping home or working light services on on PU. 2) piggy backing at gear changes as the westerns did, one bogie continuing in drive as the other declutches and changes gear.

Crazy, or the Brush of a Pen Stroke Away?

Of all these crazy notions what do I think the most likely to have ever seen the light of day been?

Top runners for production classes would actually have to be none of my favourites per se but>

short production runs and prototypes

1500hp early disk display syphon 12 SVT
1650 hp deltic syphon trial Deltic 18
2200 hp deltic syphon trial T18
1600-2000hp twin engined DH or DE on bobo

production

1500hp AIA class 31s / a silly 30 hp short

1700 hp Class '34' 8 LDA SR / WR ETH loco

1600/1800 hp v 12 Ventura single unit Bo Bo Diesel Hydraulic

1600 / 1800 hp ""    ""    ""    ""     "" 

Why these into production?  Well the first one is a no brainer, it was either an arbitary derating to conform to type 2 banding or Brush could have been asked to tweak 14 kw more out of their electric transmission without having bust a gut.

Also the second one seems to be the most likely of any sulzer option because 1( the 33s were successful early on 2) BR liked the straight LDA format a lot in its air charged cooled variant, they had hundreds and hundreds of the darn things and parts are largely standard to the 12 LDA. It could have ended up in an extention to the 33 order or in say a BREL AIA streched class 25. IMHO there should have been wide scale cancellation of all these vermin and upgrading to either the 8LDA or moving over to ruther orders for 12 CSVT.

I think also that an early to mid sixties vision of the folly of type 2 while the success of the paxman in the warship showed the way, an alternative to the v16 maybach may have arisen in a v12 1500 hp / 1800 hp ventura, thus allowing for the class 52 to be a true type 5 and 100mph operator by using twin venturas and thus making a standard set up for the higher horse power locos in these two brackets, with the Maybach and MAN warships scheduled for retirement or reeingining with the venturas over time.  A V12 ventura is probably also ligher than the Hymeks v16 so that they could be weighted down as an RA 5 loco.

DE ventura based versions may have come later either via the class 29 experience or by the HST programme and proposed tail/end freightliner high speed container services.

If you think any of this is really so very crazy, super deltic single unit syphon included at the fringe end, then think again about what the BTC / BRB actually did. It ordered the CoBos and the Baby Deltics. It allowed western region to have completely non standard locos to the rest of the system and little standardisation within those! It stipulated that locomotives which could have been built to 119 tonnes (class 40) and 128 tonnes (peaks) should be instead fitted with vastly heavy plate sided 1Co-Co1 bogies to 'spread the weight'. Superdeltics were on the drawing board. Deltic HST power cars were also penned with this  2200hp T18 in them.  A class 30 was uprated to 2000 hp experimentally with air charged cooling. EE built the C1800s for Portugal at 108 tonnes......

Why Was Truth Stranger than (my) Fiction?

The real problem was two fold. Firstly BTC/BRB rushed over the evaluation phase of the initial prototypes and first series of orders. Technology had also moved forward, basically all the first phase locos were about 1953 technology, while the big advances in air charge cooling came into effect in 1956-1958. Other major advances such as the KV10 load generator and more reliable high speed engines filtered through just a few years later in the early to mid sixties. The left had of the BTC knew fine well that the motorways and four axle truck were going to take light freight off the branch line connections, while the railway side seemed to bury their head in historic figures of light trains needing tiddly little 1000hp to 1250 hp to tinker around with them. They should have seen that the US style of multiple heading was wasteful for the UK system in light of this with type 2s being redundant in their youth,  and opted for more type 3s and 4s. They should have waited longer before ordering classes and stipulating power bands, in order to evaluate types and horse power ratings, while also considering the market for rail transport, in particular the type of frieght which would remain competitive and the emergence of containerisation.

In a sensible world, we would have had CoCo forties and peaks and a lot more syphon Gs and 'bean can' 33s. The uprated 2750 hp 12 LDA should have been rejected upon extended trials of a dozen or so units in favour of the 12 LVA or the 16 CSVT. We would have seen continuing work to uprate the deltic engine in the early 60s to allow for 3800 hp operation with ETH generation in the fleet and for the superdeltic to tackle the WCML and presumably follow the route to displace westerns on the WR. We should have seen uprating trials with the 2000hp v12 CSVT and the 2350 hp v16 for the orders of class 40s post 1960. A full prototyping should have been undergone for the D400 before they were ordered, and the class be standardised to the less out landish equipment with normal oil wetted air intake filters. And we should have seen a fleet of kestrels too on the v16 LVA running express trains in the forefront of expanding electrification and standard 120mph running on most major routes.

Business wise they should have indeed focused on two or three power unit types ( variants with common cylinder and piston units and other common items) from two or three manufacturers, and in terms of worrying about  competition in british industry, directed that primary contractors like BRCW and EE sub contract some components and building of structures to smaller firms like Bayer Peacock and the likes. They could have focused on a big three manufacturer route, those mentioned above, plius BREL when the offering or capacity could not be found. The BTC/ BRB could alternatively have stipulated supply of power units from two or three sources ( sulzer, EE/ruston-paxmans, Maybach Licencee in the UK) with different work shops assembling units, but really that is just not as desirable as a prime design house who create fuilly integrated machines. A counter agrument would be the Class30 to Class 31 upgrade, or the fact that the 6LDA locos could be built to very similar quality over many different workshops, or that EE used RSH for a very large proportion of their capacity outside the Vulcan productiuon.

Today we have not really any less of a crazy situation because rail operators and rolling stock owners invest so sporadically and in self interest that they loose much of the opportunity and will to standardise. New and rather ludicrous emissions standards exclude many from the market for power units which can fit into a loco while being clean enough. The future is uncertain, but without government legislation or a return to more public control and ownership it is unlikely that the nirvanna of standardisation will ever be reached.

torsdag 13. august 2015

Why was 2000 bhp a bridge too far for the EE type 3?

The class 37 was often proposed under powered by type 4 fans, but in fact of course it prove to be a very good horse power rating in keeping the fleets reliability up, and rendering their longevity only as finite as the HGR avoiding private owners would allow. At various points in the 1960s and 70s they hauled the heaviest and longest frieghts in the UK, in multiple admittedly, while also turning out for fairly racey diagrams on the non stop summer Skegnes services amongst others, even working the famous 1S45. However an uprated version of the locomotive was of course not just proposed, but also tried out.

The irony is not lost on us that the original EE general arrangement drawings of the Type 3 (evt Class 37) included a position for a secondary diesel generator, thus rendering the class with dual heat potential on outset. By the mid sixties though, EE were confident enough to offer the loco as a 2000hp performer in a new, flat end cab version similar to the 2050bhp export models which went to the then East Africa. BRB at the time were wise enough to know they were onto a good thing, with type 2s proving underpowered and various lesser types already earmarked for the scrap heap as "non standard".  So the final order for 37s remained standard and some of the best examples of their class to my experience, rolled off the assembly lines in 1964 and 65. Amongst them was one example which would go on to be fairly infamous. 37 292.

I have the pleasure of being hauled by the beast, all be that it was somewhat underperforming, running unevenly on idle and not opening up completely. It did whizz along the Kilmarnock to Ayr route, and further to Stranrær, which in any other year than 1984 would have been a rarity for a 37 in itself!

Scottish depots were pretty bad at under maintaining locos given the demands of damp, occasionally salt water laced conditions, icy and greasy rails and more than a fair share of gradients, curves and variable speeds. It seems 37292 was in a state of "returning soon to works, don't spend any money on it" at ML in 1984 unfortunately. It worked a few times that summer out of Glasgow central, with perhaps only a handful of other passenger workings in the period 1981-83 as a break down recovery loco. Perhaps due to this latter day unreliability, it remained probably the "largest" syphon on ML shed through 1984 and prior to its long booked return to works for HGR and "four-ing" in 1985. (37 137 and a 200 series being pretty rare out on seated rolling stock too it has to be said)

As I blogged before, the evolution of the CSVT to to the RK traction took a little back water via Australia and also 47 601/901. The maximum rating of a "csvt" badged v12 is 2350 b.h.p. in Aus, and despite a single turbo being employed, they still sound decidely CSVT and not V16 jumbojet like. The aussie engine was probably a metric one, but possibly did not get gear driven cams- so together with the thoarty, pulse type turbo exhaust roar then we can presume that this is as far as the CSVT got.  2000 hp was enough out of a v12 from EE/ GEC until 47901 reared its ugly head!


Reports on the electric internet show us to 1981 as the year that a very nicely prepared EX works 292 exited Doncaster on a test train. Given that ETH'ing was carried out toute suite in 1985, then a two year test and evaluation period plus then a two year planning and material procurement period seems about right for 1980s Britain.



It has been said that the alternator alone contributes about another 100 hp efficiency to the system, and with the lower CP4 gearing chosen, the need for 2000hp and possibly a shorter service interval was considered avoidable.  A single 37/4 could be used to pick up the aluminium ingots train at Corpach as against a pair of "zeros" and acceleration on passenger services was by in large not much different, even when producing ETH. Top speed on the other hand.....

 In standard rating the welsh depots and Stratford could keep well on top of valve and timing chain issues with preventative servicing. Miles-Per-Casualty would be interesting to compate with 31s and of course much better than 47s which broke down a lot, having never been able to handle their class wide uprating. So probably a very wise choice to stick to the lovely 1750bhp.


fredag 3. desember 2010

The CSVT / RK270 mm

As an interesting anorak worthy excursion back into "what might have been" about the CSVT and EE D6700 variants.

The malaysians are jsut decommissioning the last Class22, which were a 1710hp set up made in Austrailia (AEI?) Previous references to this a few years ago noted it as a 12CSVT, but in fact it was a v8

So there are two fossils in the evolutionary pathway for the CSVT which mark power developments for rail traction beyond that of the DP2/ class 50.

The other "Missing Link" was the Hunslet built BoBo's which ran on the DUblin: Belfast Route in the 1970s. They were rated at allegedly 1500hp but more likely 1350. Unlike the reliable portuguese application of this PU, at 1350hp, now finding extending lives in Argentina, the V8s suffered major and catastophic failures on the "enterprise service"

The Malaysian locos are pretty hellfire, being like a fifty crossed with a 40 with some 37/31 thrown in for good measure as the thrash enthalls through the rev range. A relatively long life for the humid environment, and as with all type 3s really, performance punching above its weight.

At app 115 bhp per cylinder this means the v12 version of the CSVT from AEI at least, would have been around about 2600bhp!

Only a couple of years later in the late 70s, the T bone class 37 was of course realised as a potential export loco for BREL as lead supplier: viz a vis, class 58 with the RK and a big nasty silencer to plague fitters and enthusiasts.

As mentioned before, even with 2200hp, an alternator, CP7 bogie gearing, and a KV10 style load management system, the super-syphon-that-never-was would have been an impressive beast, probabkly managing 75 000 lbs

In the late 50s there was still rationing of most materials useful in a DE loco in the UK; EE 's ruston division probably knew that with better materials they could achieve outputs of 200hp per cylinder _: I dare say the old RK test beds, class 08 engines basically and straight 6s I have heard of, were run to failure with high power.

What they could have offered BTC/BRB was a lease engine scheme with lifetime upgrades as the higher horse power units came on line. However the locos were purpose built to the three power types EE supplied with SVT/CSVT engines eventually and with limitations on electrical materials, over-engineering was largely avoided.

In considering specific power output for a cylinder unit on a diesel engine, the developers take into account the major parameters. compression/decompression, fuel/turbo pressures, effective combination of the latter two and heat dissapation. (Lubrication relates to compression)

Eventually of course the smooth cycle of the V12 lead to the RK270 engine being developed to have almost 500 hp per cyclinder unit; but this entailed a larger size and much larger turbo chargers, thus resulting in the 270 being "out of gauge" to be fitted into a UK loco.

Also there is the issue of heat dissapation and thermal cycling; these are less prominent in shipping or other marine environments because water is a good conductor of heat, is usually relatively cool, and in plentiful supply. A loco has to pump air, which is a poor conductor, rather an insulator, and that air can be up to 50'C in some operating environments. For example the paxman "cousin" to the RK, the now VP developed from the Valenta, which itself as the Venture created 2250hp in the IC 125, where as it output almost 5000 hp ( 7000 kw ) in heat, most of which had to be radiated away.

However Rustons prior to absorption into MAN, found demand for a lighter and very compact unit for various more limited marine, generating and traction "footprints" for a PU:

It comes very full circle at this point becasue the PRIMA locos ( eg the horrid class 67 in the uk, but with electro-mechanical routes traceable to GEC Alsthom and hence EE) built for Sri Lanka ( and in fact another non US super-friendly country, Syria), where the difficult working environment has necessitated a major reduction in power output. To between 1700 and 1850 hp in fact.

Long live the EE type 3.

torsdag 18. november 2010

November, 26 years ago Class 37 moves....

This month just shows the gritty determination of a syphon basher trying to get up to 10,000 miles on ED boilereds!

Various links on the internet to class 37s are drying up as 80s bashers get a life less interesting....btw


A testimony to the reliability of the core WHL 37s, it was the usual suspects all the way. Not one line in the book for a whole month, just miles-and-chains.

Only thing of note was that I believe I either mileage-optimised the day with a duke to Crianlarich (even "the Bridge o'" , or prefered Charlie Browns on Buchannan St for lunch......I seem to remember tea and scones at Crianlarichs' repoened platform tea room as well.

03.11.1984 Transcard: restricted area






09:06:00 Home Arrochar 37191
09:45:00 Arrochar Glasgow QS 37081
12:20:00 Glasgow QS (Oban) Crianlarich 37112
14:01:00 Crianlarich Glasgow QS 37191
16:50:00 Glasgow QS Dumbarton Central 37051
18:51:00 Dumbarton Arrochar 37191
20:15:00 Arrochar Home 37011



ETHEL 1
10.11.1984 Trannie restricted area maybe

09:06:00 Home Arrochar 37043
09:45:00 Arrochar Glasgow QS 37081
12:20:00 Glasgow QS (Oban) Crianlarich 37112
14:15:00 Crianlarich Glasgow QS 37043
16:50:00 Glasgow QS Crianlarich 37012
19:xx Crianlarich Arrochar 37112
19:45:00 Arrochar Ardlui 37051
20:01:00 Ardlui Home 37191



ETHEL 1












17.11.1984 Trannie restricted area maybe





09:06:00 Home Arrochar 37051
09:45:00 Arrochar Glasgow QS 37043
12:20:00 Glasgow QS (Oban) Crianlarich 37033
14:15:00 Crianlarich Glasgow QS 37051
16:50:00 Glasgow QS Bridge-of-Orchy 37043
19:xx Bridge-of-Orchy Home 37027



ETHEL 1
24.11.1984 Trannie restricted area maybe





09:06:00 Homer Arrochar 37043
09:45:00 Arrochar Glasgow QS 27053
12:20:00 Glasgow QS (Oban) Crianlarich 37175
14:15:00 Crianlarich Glasgow QS 37027
16:50:00 Glasgow QS Crianlarich 37085
19:xx Crianlarich Arrochar 37175
19:45:00 Arrochar Ardlui 37191
20:01:00 Ardlui Home 37033



ETHEL 1

søndag 14. november 2010

What Might Have Been .::Locos Nearly... Syphon

The class 37 has proven to be the best locomotive from the original dieselisation in terms of both longevity, reliability-service interval and performance relative to original design breif for miixed traffic type 3s.

( Only time will tell if the freight only class 66 will better this from the new world of standardisation , with the sheltered lives of the Class 59s not being comparable.The class 31 and 47 failed in meeting their original design missive, both requiring expensive re-engineering. Class 33s came very close, but lack the outright pulling power in maximum and starting tractive effort that the 37 delivers)

Why did we not see more variants of a successful formula while sulzer managed to work with three different manufacturers, is lost in the past. EE had success with export and Australian manufactured 12CSVT and of course the 16 in portugal and several other countries, Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) Malaysia, and also various V8s in SVT and CSVT ( Portugal and Malaysia). The only other "variant" of the V12 was of course the almost type 3 class 31, originally a Mirlees PU machine.

However we came very near to some closely related machines: firstly it is stated that the last batch of 37s could have been "T bone" and 2000hp rated machines in 1965 ( as went to "East Africa" in the late 60s) This uprating prove to be unreliable in 37 292 and of course the BR Class 50/ D400, being compounded by other faults inherent in that locomotive. However an even higher per cylinder specific power capacity was achieved by EE australia (AEI) who delviered the malaysian class 22, with a V8 CSVT rated at no less than 1710 hp.

The v12 is a smoother engine than the 8 and 16 deriviatives because the firing cycle of the pistons is more balanced. The class 50 unveils this in the suprising "dubbing" which is the pulse of several cylinders firing in very close succession/ simultaeneously, creating shock in the engine block which resulted in failures through the 1980s. This was also seen in some class 40s, while such failures are very rare in the 12 cyclinder variant.

Given an improved timing chain, or gear driven system, and better valve gear, then the v12 in the mid to late sixties could have had a reasonable life span at 2000hp in my opinion. Of course the specific capacity of the 270 mm bore ( 10 inch bore, 12 inch stroke over square engine) went on much further, especially in marine environments. The 215mm RK215now achieves almost twice the standard traction rating of the 12CSVT.

The T bone class were a near miss, but even by the late 60s, there was marked down turn in the demand for freight and continuing electrification entailed that more type 4 , generally peaks and 40s, could be released to work the type of traffic envisaged for type 3s. The class 50s are really an after thought in dieselisation.

Back up here though! We almost got a 175hp /cylinder v16 CSVT; EE offered apparently BOTH a CVST engine for the forties in 1960 AND Co Co design to RA 6 at some point. Given these could have been made pre 1962, the loco would have been nosed, centre coded, tumble home sided CoCo. Stretched? Well not really absolutely: the portugeuse 1800s are shorter and much lighter than a class 50, being really an RA5 loco. We could have seen two variants: a no boiler compact freight machine made in the 37 body, and a dual heat longer bodied variant, both rated at between 2200hp and 2450hp, being the proven rating/cylinder of the 12CSVT from 1958 onwards.

EE could have come close to another type 3 : The baby deltic could have been a truly half deltic instead of the heavily framed diversion into type 2. In other words the 18 or a turbo 12 or 15 variant could have been put in a light tubular framed shell onto BoBo, or into a class 37 / D6700 body directly: WHy? Well why on earth did they get away with building the baby deltics in the first place? A full 18 deltic would have been fully compatible with the big sister's PUs and the CoCo bogies the same as type 3s. Lunacy? Not nearly as daft as the T9 in the bobo.

Another flight of lunacy, was the twin engined t9 deltic for both diesel hydraulic and D-E applications: the idea behind the DE version being that one engine could be turned off for hauling empties or working slower trains. That would have been a 2200 hp noisy beast.

Finally, had we seen a more rapid reduction in non standards in the late 60s, like all deisel hydraulics, then in the early 70s there may have been a gap for something standard enough to other loco fleets but of type 4 power: the last quote i have found on the 12CVST engine's rating prior to it becoming the super powered class 58 RKT, was 2500hp in a marine application, meaning about 2250hp for traction. Fitted in a shortened 50 body, or in the 50 body with dual heat , utilising an auxillary power generator, this would have been a very flexible loco: essentially a 37 with more grunt for both freight and 100mph trains. Given the superior power delivery of EE then this would have probablky outperformed the peaks and 47s.


But what could have happened with what we had. 37s !?

1) double headed high speed sub class: double heading is very standard in north america and many other countries to haul longer trains, shorten journey times and ensure higher reliability of services. This set up was tried at least three times on BR:

i) On western region, a trial in comparison / substituion to unrelaibel westerns on the highest speed expresses at that time. Deemed a failure as it wore the locos too hard for their current set up, and to do with fuel used and availability of locos to displace steam.

ii) on the Glasgow-Edinburgh service they were trialled perhaps in comparison the class 27s, end to end though with Blue Star cables run through the train. 37s could keep within 5 minutes of the heavily maintained class 47-7 route, using about 48-52 minutes on the route with the stops at Falkirk and Haymarket included.

iii) two thirty sevens were uprated to work over 100mph to propell the unpowered APT set on the ECML prior to electirfication and type 4 stock coming into use. Possibly a 37 10x and 17x. Presumably allowed to run at 1000 rpm or some electircal modification??

Given a sub class with a separate ETH geneator ( as planned , see wikipedia link to an EE document as a pdf) and four field diversions, the last coming in at about 80 to 85mph, then the syphon could have worked faster services.

The highest speed I heard was a pair working on the Great Eastern, which was calculated at 114mph, according to John a "top man" from Alfreton. Given some of the timings on the ECML and the Glasgow Edinburgh route, 37s could get up to and sustain 100mph in their original gearing.

An alternative option would be regearing to the class 40 gearing ratio, and altering the field diversion and electrical system to deliver a somewhat smoother progress for 200-400 tonne passenger trains cruising at 90 and peaking at 100mph on good sections of track. As a supplement to this option, running in pairs with the front loco switching to control would have been a sensible option for many semi fast routes.

onsdag 15. september 2010

Bashing. "ned cards" Mid July 1984

16/7/1984 sATRUDAY

One day after the "freedom" was over and it was right into a transcard, at all of £4.99, and just to show the southside of Glasgow was where it was all happening, just take a look at this day:


16.07.1984  LowLand Master Transcard
08:54:00 Home Glasgow C Low Level 303
10:02:00  Glasgow C Johnstone 37138
10:50:00  Johnstone Glasgow C DMU
11:30:00  Glasgow C Paisley 37013
11.xx   Paisley Glasgow Central DMU
12:40:00  Glasgow C Stevenston 37196
14:09:00  Kilwinning Glasgow C DMU
15:08:00  Glasgow QS low level Coatbridge Sunnyside 303
15:40:00  Coatbridge Central Cumbernauld 40150
16:20:00  Cumbernauld Springburn DMU
16:34:00  Springburn Glasgow QS Low Level 303
17:30:00  Glasgow C Nitshill 27066
17.xx   Nitshill Glasgow C DMU
18:15:00  Glasgow C Johnstone DMU
18:52:00  Johnstone Glasgow C 37155
20:56:00

The date is important: first saturday of the glasgow fair: the tradtional shutdown of the yards for a week or two's holiday, often taken doon-the-watter. In this case the addex's seem to be to the silvery sands of Stevenston. When we bailed there it was far from silvery in the town centre; strewn with litter and an itinerant Rottweiler shagging some poor unsuspecting mongrel.

A very big line for any diesel loco, but there were several monsters out. 37013 vo back out on the Stranrærs, and 138, seeming small beer now and not only big loco but a big line 37 196: think it was one of the few boiler isolated 37s: dunno where it was allocated at the time, but obvioulsy lurking with intent ex motherwell. We did a "shanks pony move over to Kilwinning assisted by an old double decker IIRC. Chips in between and a semi-fast Ayr DMU service to "whisk" us in for the next move: well rattle us up a little quicker than the stopping 311s down there at that time.

Then some daytime version of 1S81 or the likes drops a 40 and we go after it on a bloody transcard! That old grumpy sod with the tasch commented as such on the way from Coatbridge Central to Cumbernauld. But a line in the book was had from all be it a very lethargic 40150 when compared to her sister 155 we had bagged at Chester. A "desperate" move.

Then back into central for a strange move to Nitshill: IIRC 27066 was nb now and fairly large. To top it off, on one of the returning Stevenstons or Ardrossans 37155: very, very big ML IIRC and a nice rack of three huge syphons within three weeks: 154-156 thank you, my lords!

Saturday 21/7/84

21.07.1984 LowLand Master Transcard





09:06:00 Home Garelochhead 37014
10:08:00 Garelochhead Glasgow QS 37081
11:30:00 Glasgow C Ayr 37155
12:30:00 Ayr Kilmarnock 47537
13.xx Ayr Kilmarnock 37292
15:45:00 Glasgow C Kilmarnock 26015

Kilmarnock Barrhead DMU

Barrhead Kilmarnock 27001
18:47:00 Kilmarnock Glasgow C 37048


Central 303


A week later and we ae taking motherwell NB and foreign split box syphons for granted. But this day produced at that point the biggest of them all: in it's life as the super-syphon, 37292 probably worked three passenger trains and this was one. "huge if not enormous" as Rupert put it in a post to a blogg "this bashing day in History".

292 grumbled it's way over the slack line Kilmarnock-Ayr. At Ayr it was notably "hunting" , a fault I have heard caused by choking valve seats, badly adjusted timing chains or faulty governors. Although it probably did not prioduce anywhere near 2000bhp, the benefits of the alternator made it seem to accelerate quicker relative to less thrash!

37292 was actually the prototype for the 37/4s which could well have been uprated. This uprating was the same as the CSVT uprate on the 50s: so it is unlikely it would have been a success without gear-driven-cams, new valve gear etc. II guess that autumn 292 went down to Crewe works to become the 37/4.

The then "silly ba'heid" move persisted as syphons could well drop on from carlisle. Syphons like 048 were probably itinerant from lack of work on coal, and I reckon they displaced failed type 2s off Carlisle shed. Covering this move meant that you were "bowled out" for all the later west highland moves, bar doing a combined bus move to Garelocheid maybe.

Taking for granted was just as we did: this was actually the last "big" saturday out of Glasgow Central moves, and the likes of the 37 moves seen that summer would only be repeated on the Aberysthwiths the next summer, where NB 37s were actually BOOKED and not huge drops! A week later, at the end of August, I scored my last big ML 37, 152 which worked the 11:30 stranrær. Although as you will see the 11:30 more or less became booked a 37, the later examples seemed to be boilered stratford examples which IIRC became Scottish allocations anyway.

Certainly by October I was no longer a ned really, but a syphon basher bone fide and with enough under the belt to be a "man". I knew by that October freedom that the writing was on the wall. I was getting a bit bored of bashing from time to time, and that disastourous Mystex to Chester was just the first nail in the coffin.


37192 to dundee and back marked me as a syphon devotee: They became pretty common on that route later, but until 84 they were rare for some reason: There were still enough reasonably condition 27s and 26s to cover the dundee loco hauled prior to this. It is not a bad route for 37s, with top speeds of 90mph and very little running at the dreaded 40-50 mph slack spot. 37192 became my mileage machine, although I think I topped it with 188. It put in a good run, but one of the mrk Is had a dragging brake set so I reckon we didn't get over 75mph. IIRC I did this all alone, with maybe a paltry few "men" coming on later at Perth. West country bloke with beard reported the coach IIRC too.

Also that October, 264 moved north to Inverness ( again?) and was duly taken there. Dark evenings up the Far North East!

torsdag 29. juli 2010

Class 37 EE type Three 1750hp weirdness

1) 108: class 40 turbo
2) 133: bendy bogies- I have a note from  the cl37lg committee that 37175 bore these, but also I see that 37133 was in doncaster works in 1984 alongside some 50s undergoing HGR and I wonder if this was when it had these. Gordon Sellers said it was 133 which had bendy fitted (articulated bogies, persumably like US locomotives have)

3) far north mixed freight-passenger

4) class 20 pilot WHL

5) end to end, Greenock to Aviemore: other end to end workings pre 1990?

6) 37/0s which became /1s upon repair

7) 37 296 reallocation before "fouring"

8) the proposed small diesel ETH generator in the wiki pdf on the D6700s

9) the pairs used to propell the APT on the non wired ECML



10) working the Flying Scotsman ( 1S45) in 1960 blip

11) tripples to Llanwern

12) doubles for swaps and run ins: more common than I rememeber on the WHL, the of course the georgemas junction loco and the 37/4 run ins.

13) unusual workings pre 37/4x/5 etc upgrades: glasgow QS low level, the sleeper through to Central etc. 1S81 and the whole thing

14) the 37/3s at ML * see below # 24

15) doubles in the West Country on high seped trains in the 60s/ 70s : failure? Better than d1000s?

16) lickey bankers, QS tunnel bankers...:other bankers??


17) THe early scottish allocation to Grangemouth

18) the glasgow edinburgh push pull trial of 37s

19) the use of 37s to replace 47/7s in july 1984- what happened?

20 ) routes which hardly ever saw thirty sevens in the 70s and early 80s

21) the converse;: routes the 37/4s etc came to run on frequently post 1986 which had never seen 37s before.

22) 37292s uprating to 2000hp

23) why the locos were chosen to become 37/4s and /9s.

24) Oddity: scotland chooses the reverse of welsh steel trains: ML depot trialled both class 56s and later 58s on the hunterston iron ore trains and coal fuel trains for Ravenscraig, and decided resolutely that a pair of thirty sevens out performed single 56s or 58s. Pt Talbot - LLanwern trains used pairs of 56s, and were of course faster than even the triple 37s. But maybe due to the diagrams, there was no advantage seen in going over to single type 5s. This could have been a little biased by MLs management having gathered good operating 37s over time and wanting to retain both head count in fitters and not burden them with a whole new set of training, failures and spare parts.